Do you think it is possible to be completely happy for another person with no hint of envy/jealousy, or to the contrary, do you think every time one is happy for another, there is an indestructible parallel thread of envy that is part of man's innate nature? If you believe in the former, would you qualify it, i.e., are there any circumstances under which this is possible? What about the necessity for it? Do you think it is necessary to have the ability to feel truly happy for another person?
Indians have long believed in the existence of the "evil eye", to the extent that it is even believed to be subconscious, and they also believe that jealousy can affect the well-being of the other person. Of course, I think many of us do feel insecure when we sense jealousy. Whether or not we consciously take a stand on believing in the evil eye, there are times when many of us are afraid to "jinx" something. What are your sentiments in this regard?
I think that being happy for another person takes empathy. To this end, do you think that a person incapable of being happy for another is incapable of sympathizing with another's sorrow just the same...?
Have you been in a circumstance/relationship where you can never feel that another person can be truly happy for your success? Is that important to you, and do you think the reason for the other person's not being happy is necessarily jealousy? If not, what are the other possibilities, assuming that you know the person too well for it to be simple nonchalance?
How do you deal with jealousy, both when you see it brewing inside you and when you see it in another person, towards you? Is it possible for good friendship and active jealousy to coexist, and if so, is that ok?
And finally, what do you think is the origin of jealousy? I was reading about Jean-Jacques Rousseau's philosophy. According to Rousseau:
"Society's negative influence on men centers on its transformation of amour de soi, a positive self-love, into amour-propre, or pride. Amour de soi represents the instinctive human desire for self-preservation, combined with the human power of reason. In contrast, amour-propre is artificial and encourages man to compare himself to others, thus creating unwarranted fear and allowing men to take pleasure in the pain or weakness of others." (wikipedia)
How much do you agree with that? Do you think the reason is, ultimately, society/social structure?
10 comments:
I've often wondered along the same lines. I'm currently reading Matt Ridley's Origin of Virtues, which I think explains some of the questions. I also recommend The Moral Animal, by Robert Wright. They all mostly agree with Rousseau's philosophy, except that personally, I've reconciled to the possibility that the self-preservation instinct is often not linked (directly at least) to human reason. Man is not as rational as he supposes, especially in such matters. Natural selection has hard-wired these instincts for the most part and forms the structure of our society.
I believe human beings are wont to compare themselves, and constantly measure their life - its successes and failures with their peers, to see if they are competing strong enough to be the fittest. "Fittest" in today's era means social, personal and professional success. So feelings of envy/jealousy and insecurity are natural-selection's way of slapping us out of any complacency, and urging us to get ahead. But self-preservation also means that the instinct to compete needs to be moderated, for Man has discovered the benefits of "altruism" and cooperation. Without a social structure that promotes good-will and cooperation we can't hope to survive. It's an interesting balance :)
Therefore, I believe that it's possible for humans to truly be happy for someone under two circumstances:
1) To our kith and kins - this is evolution's way of instilling "genuine altruistic" feelings to help us focus on the bigger picture of helping our gene pools survive. Although sibling rivalry is another issue altogether, for the most part, it is much uncommon for parents to be jealous of their children and vice-versa.
2) If we undertake the project of focusing our energy to uplift and help someone grow and thrive (eg., social workers), then the success of such a project is a boost to our ego and pride. The feeling of superiority overtakes the need for envy. And from Natural-selection's stand point, it is valuable to save as many of our species as possible.
Due to the need for moderating feelings such as jealousy, I think society has tried to curb it by warnings such as the "evil eye". It acts as a suppressant many times. As Robert Wright explains, no one wants to be nice to someone who is mean to them (a simple philosophy). And for Man, it is an absolute necessity to not be too mean, as to eventually harm his own social-acceptance and survival. Which is why we have moral tenets that help us temper and suppress negative feelings and instincts.
Someone who can't be happy for someone can sympathize much easier. Sympathy also comes from the knowledge -"Thank God, this is not happening to me." And again, Sympathy is fundamental to Nature's way of trying to instill the instinct to help our fellow species. (And is in line with Rousseau's view that man can subconsciously take pleasure in others' weakness).
Yes, there are some acquaintances and members of the family who find it threatening and unacceptable if I or anybody else is more successful. The main reason I think is insecurity and an inferiority complex. It manifests as envy. It's not as important to me, but it does bother me to face blatant artificiality and negativity (and sometimes rudeness). I try to ignore, avoid such company and am wary of what "news" about me I disclose in the open.
I usually find that my green monster awakens when I find someone, who according to me is not worthy of something, accomplish that which I dearly regard and respect. I try to curb my negativity by trying to learn their tactics and strategies for success (so that I can apply them). Sometimes, knowledge of this irks me more, and I am not proud of it :).
I don't think good friendship and active jealousy can/should coexist. Occasional pangs are perhaps unavoidable, but something more persistent is contrary to the symbiotic relationship that friendship is.
PS: Sorry this seems like a post by itself!
thanks for sharing, dear neeraja :-)
I agree with many things there and have thought along the same lines (esp. wrt natural selection).
I'll comment in more detail soon...
And please don't worry about the long comments, they're so welcome! That's the whole point of cyber diaries- broad, abstract questions (And answers)...
I think it's important to distinguish between jealousy and envy. If you wish something nice that happened to someone didn't happen to them, that's jealousy; but if you wish it happened to you too (without necessarily wishing it didn't happen to them), that's envy- at least that's how I understand these words. While jealousy may not be desirable, I think it's totally okay to have envy for someone.
When you're jealous, the way I've defined it, it's not possible to be genuinely happy for someone and it just makes you as well as the other person (if they come to know of it) feel bitter. Sometimes, this is unavoidable and justified, such as when (according to you) a person gets undeserved success. But if not, I think it's important to be genuinely appreciative and not be jealous. I do think that in this latter case, jealousy would mean lack of empathy which I think is not desirable (although I need to work out for myself why exactly I think so). I don't think jealousy and good friendship can coexist- although thankfully, I've never been in that situation (I think!). Whenever I've felt jealous (which has been pretty rare), it's been for people who're not good friends and because I felt they got something they didn't deserve- I've justified this above but I can never be sure...(I see Neeraja has said something similar)
Envy on the other hand I think can be good! I envy a LOT of people that are very close to me for various reasons. I try to channelize that envy into motivating/ inspiring me to be as good as or better than they are, at the things that I wish to excel in. Jealousy can also have these positive effects (motivation/ inspiration), but it also often leaves you feeling angry and bitter.. But I think there's nothing bad about envy without jealousy...
And I'm inclined to think that jealousy has its origins in the individual- I think it stems from an individual's wants, needs and aspirations. While these wants and needs could be a product of societal influence, I think jealousy itself is a product of an individual's mind.
Absolutely! It's totally possible to be truly happy for someone when you love them not "despite" their flaws but "with" their flaws. And at least in my world view, this is *very* important to me. For people that are not that close, empathy is always enough to keep jealously from entering one's mind. I also think that jealously and true friendship cannot coexist. I believe that if one cannot be truly happy for someone else, those two people cannot be true friends.
I think jealously at the bottom of it all is born out of insecurity and caring too much what people think of you. Basically the "I", the ego, how much importance one gives to it. I also feel that it is linked to people who are less happy inside. By happy I mean at peace inside. And also people who do not learn to "let go" easily.
I should also add that under apocalyptic conditions, people like myself will probably be one of the first people to go. Jealousy or envy *maybe* linked to competitiveness and hence transitively, survival perhaps at some deep level?? Dunno….but as some of my friends say, I seem to be on a permanently high dosage of 'happy pills' (maybe they meant "hippy pills?") :-)
damn! I tried to leave a comment, it asked me to sign in and i did, and the stupid thing says "unable to process request" damn! I lost the content... will try to rewrite...
sorry folks, sometimes life just takes over. I hardly get to sit at my computer these days except at work, at which time I am too busy for blogs, today is an exception... so pls. accept my belated comments. :)
thanks to all of you for stopping by and sharing.
@neeraja: I agree with your thoughts mostly, except, I think there are other conditions under which it's possible for jealousy to not come up. To get at that, the first question to answer is why and when jealousy comes up. A necessary condition for jealousy to come up is that you desire something and don't have it, and that someone else has it. If you have what you desired, then the question of jealousy doesn't come up at all. However, it's possible that this condition exists; i.e., that someone else has something that you really want, but you are not jealous. And that is: if either you love them a lot, or, have reasoned with the situation enough to rationalize that the other person worked for it, deserves it and things along those lines.
But overall, I agree with the cooperation vs competition approach, when viewing it from an evolutionary scale, rather than (what I think is a limited) individual scale. I think a lot of things can be reasoned along these lines.
@sindhu: Yes, I think there is a difference between envy and jealousy, and I consciously didn't bring it up in my initial questions.
I think friendship and active jealousy cannot coexist. Neither can apathy and friendship. (The topic here is "being happy for another", and the other possibility we haven't entertained so far is apathy).
Friendship, I think by definition, means being happy for each other's good stuff, as it equally means sharing in each other's difficult times.
@galadriel: It was difficult for me to process some of the things you were saying since I couldn't quite follow where you were coming from. I was not able to connect the dots and relate them to the topic at hand, for e.g., caring about what others think, and letting go... I happen to think that jealousy has little or nothing to do with caring about what other people think and I think jealousy, just like any other feeling can equally be transient, and "let go"...don't know, but may be there are pathological cases where all these things are causally connected with each other. But that would be just as much connection as any two psychological parameters... so couldn't connect these things with the core issue. :)
I just remembered something a friend of mine from my undergrad once said, years back... she said "isn't envying someone bestowing an honor on them?"
then i just laughed it off, but thinking of it now, I realize those were very wise words for her years.
In dealing with jealousy of other people, thats what I tell myself- that it's an honor they're bestowing on me, and wrt jealousy in me, I am sure that I don't want to bestow that honor unless it's really deserved. :)
I think jealousy is a part of human nature and I know that everyone at one point or another has felt it. I think what is important is how we deal with this jealousy. Some people are consumed by it and it can destroy them. When I get jealous of someone, which doesn't happen often, I acknowledge it and then I think of all the reasons why it is silly for me to feel this way. I think that a bad self-image and jealousy walk hand in hand, which is what makes jealousy so destructive. People who are unhappy with themselves and their lives will always be jealous of others instead of appreciating what they have. I would never involve myself in a relationship with someone who was jealous of me all the time. That kind of negativity is stifling.
Although jealousy is in our nature I do believe society only makes things worse by making people feel bad about themselves. Through marketing and other such things we are all told how we are supposed to look, what car to drive, what we should be wearing, etc., and if we do not have these things then we should strive for them. This makes people believe all this superficial crap when none of those things make up who we are as people. This need to conform instead of embracing our individuality just enables jealousy.
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts Amanda, and I must say I agree with them. Sorry, I just looked at your comment now, after a long time since you wrote it!
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